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Re: Mariah's voice (83,054) (83,059) by Tevin from USA Thanks Manuel for your insight. I'm curious about a few things. Do you think drinking is a huge factor in her voice? I mean look at performances from 2009 vs 2010 when she was pregnant, sure it wasn't perfect, some performances dubbed but you could tell her voice sounded a heck of a lot better. Almost as you called it 90s sound but matured. Anyway I know having children affected her breathing and diaphram but to me it seemed like the lack of drinking had the biggest impact, what do you think? Also (you might want to check this out) but there is a YouTube video showing how in Mariah prime especially doing Daydream era she had breathing technique issues, also I heard that one of the reasons her voice was so light and airy in Daydream era wasn't just technique but possibly vocal decline (sounds crazy I know), due to her noduels enlarging causing airyness to her voice, then in Butterfly era they started to harden, hence the deep raspiness and tone. Any thoughts? (Monday 9 July 2018; 21:57)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,053) (83,058) by enwar00 from usa I think Mariah already responded to this topic. It was a song she wrote called Bleakocity. And when she repeatedly said it is what it is. (Monday 9 July 2018; 21:37)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,054) (83,057) by Billy from Greece Thank you for the very extensive reply. I also believe that to a major degree the vocal issues she may be facing are psychosomatic in their root, and I have also sensed a feeling of "burning out". I have also thought about what you've said concerning the eagerness in the early part of her career and the effect that that had on her performances. But as you said, life happens. By the way, cute pic. (Monday 9 July 2018; 21:22)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,051) (83,056) by May from Denmark Come on guys. I've gone from here for a long time because nothing new was going on with Mariah and I was tied of seeing the same subjects. It's amazing that this talk about her voice keeps coming up. The first thing I noticed with her opening Vegas is that her voice is very weak and too coarsed, she still sounded good and had a lot of control. Some people need to face it, Mariah's 90s vocalist is dead. Reality is that I have been focusing on her songwriting and really hoping she will bring something meaningful and strong again. Dissapointing as some of her latest single were, I believe she still has a lot of great music to share. I'm esger to listen to the new album and see if there is something fresh. The waiting is exhausting. (Monday 9 July 2018; 21:08)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,054) (83,055) by amends from Germany Hey Manuel. Danke, dass du dir die Zeit nimmst (i said thanks for taking the time and explaining a bit in German). I don't want anyone to get me wrong, I love Mc since 1994 and I have been following her career relentlessly. I do believe if she'd gain the technique and control back she'd deliver performances that the general public could appreciate more and not just die hard fans. And I rather have her mimic the whistles then being able to hear the difference between live vocals and pre recorded stuff so obviously. (Monday 9 July 2018; 21:07)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,048) (83,054) by Manuel from Germany Hey guys So many questions. I'll try to answer all of them. amends: If she had the nodules removed, she wouldn't sound as hoarse in her belts above D5, but if she doesn't change her technique, they would come back. Also, her voice would only sound "cleaner", but it really boils down to the way she uses her voice that would make a difference in her tone. She would definitely lose the whistle register though, because she has said many times that she creates the whistles by singing through the space the nodules create, so I am assuming that her whistle register is not a real whistle register but an oddity that she managed to perfect very well. But a nodule-removing operation is a standard procedure that doesn't bring lots of consequences. She would just have to shut up for at least two weeks, not say a word, because the nodules are scraped off and there is a scar on the cords that could hemorrhage if she doesn't have absolute vocal rest. After that she would have to do voice therapy to learn a technique where she would learn what I mentioned in my previous post. this_is_qhm: I think the honeyed tea, humidifiers, checkups and sleeping that she always professes aren't doing her any good. Tea is good because it is warm, warmth increases bloodflow in the areas where it occurs and that relaxes muscles, but tea doesn't affect the vocal cords in any way directly, because the tea goes down the oesophagus and not the windpipe. The honey might put a gentle coat on the mucus membranes in the throat which helps because it keeps everything juicy and moist and it will keep her salivating (so the voice doesn't sound so dry) but the direct effect on the voice is minimal. Humidifiers have more of an effect on the vocal cords because they put a layer around the cords, and if they were dry this would be important because dry vocal cords make the voice sound dry and breathy (because they don't close properly). And the sleep thing... well of course it is important to be rested before you go on stage but the worst thing you could do is basically rest all day and then go on a stage. Voice production is muscle activity and any sportsman or woman would know that you have to warm up before you do any muscle activity so there would be no point in her taking a year off and only resting her voice, it might make matters worse because they might artrophy (not in a pathological way) but still that would be the worst thing she could do. She just needs to train her voice. And that I think is laziness on her part to not do that. What alcohol does to the voice is that it is diurethic, i.e. it makes you pee a lot. So when you pee a lot, you expel a lot of water from the body and also from the mucous membranes that are around the vocal cords, resulting in dryness of the voice. So basically it'd be helpful if she cut the booze a bit (not totally, because it is the quantity that makes things bad), she had vocal training and used humidifiers and teas as a supplement but not as her actual caretaking routine of her voice. Billy: Well sustaining your voice properly through the breath and placement is like sports. It is actually physically very demanding because it requires a lot of stamina. I think in the beginning of her career and also during CB era it was easier for her because she was just hungry for stages, singing, making a name for herself and that gave her the necessary drive which enabled her to uphold this required stamina. And after the breakdown, she learned to take more care of herself, so she was probably feeling very fit physically and mentally. I would think that the fact she doesn't support correctly anymore might have a psychological aspect with her. Maybe she is just not as hungry anymore or a little burnt out or maybe some of the medication she is taking is relaxing her a little too much or before she was taking the medication she might have been depressed and you also don't really have much access to your strengths when you are not feeling well. Or also, when you are stressed (and Mariah through her history definitely suffers from traumatic stress), the part of her nervous system that is responsible for voice production and deep breathing might have not been able to be accessed fully, so maybe she wanted to sing in the way she used to but stress prevented her from doing it. But it's hard to say, I would have to talk to her to assess that better. Also menopause affects the body and thus the voice...there are so many factors and it's hard to be sure without properly examining her. So my guess is it is psychosomatic. 90sMariah: Yeah, the blocked nose sound comes from the fact that she is too nasal and that muffles the voice and alters the quality of her sound. So surgery would help remove the hoarseness, voice therapy could help her regain confidence and teach her to place and breathe and open up properly, proper education of how to rest and take her of her instrument and not just drinking tea, humidifying and resting cause Luther Vandross once told her would help her regain her old 90s tone (maybe sounding a bit darker but that's normal with age), with less agility and maybe not so much ease to hit G5s/G#5s. But she would really have to work through a myriad of old habits to come to that point and I think she is a mommy now and puts that on first place before career etc.. (Monday 9 July 2018; 20:31)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,046) (83,053) by Deedre aka MiTodoChop @HBF from Canada How helpful is the criticism though, really? I mean I don't deny any of it, I am not a "Yes Queen". person. I'm aware of the changes in the voice, I know there is lipping. I know the vocals aren't what they were in the 90's because I know there is raspiness in her tone now. I know there has been strain. I know she has her difficulties and that the clarity in her voice is not the same as say the Daydream era. But knowing that doesn't change anything. It almost seems at times if people aren't raging angry about it as fans, then the delusional label gets tossed in the mix as if we should all be upset and if not, something is wrong. I love Mariah as a singer an artist and a musician. I care about her well being. But, to me, there are more important things in life. There's a difference between pretending or flat out denying and accepting what isn't up to you. This discussion on her voice will never end. It has gone on for years and will continue to go on and cycle back around to the same topics. (Monday 9 July 2018; 20:26)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) (83,052) by RibbonB from USA Both Aretha and Dionne sing live. Their fans know what to expect even if their voices have changed. Aretha played and sang her signature song live just a few years ago at the Kennedy center honors reminding everyone why she was dubbed the queen. Dionne's voice has been a shadow of itself for years but she still presents what she has with style and grace and live. Both are master performers in their own rights, are the a teenage prodigy raised around other exceptional performers. Dionne, a classically trained musician, and muse to two of modern music's best songwriters is at home singing live to full orchestra s both in studio and on stage. She counts Sinatra as a musical mentor. Mimi has the sales far and above these ladies, but us really not in their league as a performer. Mariah will not rely solely on live musicians and background singers. Backing tracks are fine if that's what she prefers and it's what Jenny, Brittney and much of her musical generation rely upon so that's fine. Well it is what it is. Mariah also reinvents herself, which means she has to fold in her old and new fans, if not convince them. It doesn't always work, many are not convinced and divided fans bring about stasis, which requires more effort. (Monday 9 July 2018; 19:32)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,045) (83,051) by Andrew from UK She's singing differently in Vegas because there is a "specific acoustic in there". Lmao. You are fooling nobody with your out-and-out propoganda and lies. What's wrong with you? Are you such a [censored] snowflake that you need to wrap ourself up in cotton wool? You are, quite simply, somebody who intentionally lies to mislead people into going along with what you want the truth to be. You are quite a head case. (Monday 9 July 2018; 18:02)

The Butterfly Returns setlist (83,050) by Ethan from United States The setlist is great for her current voice right now. Although I do want her to alternately switch between "Can't Take That Away" and "I Still Believe", I'm completely fine with just having the Mariah's Theme song because it's more fitting with the show since it's an empowered song. And we don't want her to strain her voice for singing more than 18-20 songs. So all I hope is she can add one more song and I wish all the lambs out there will campaign for this to have "When You Believe" added to the encore before "Hero". I think these songs' messages go well together and it's for the nostalgia, the 90s, and the ultimate divas duet. She's done for the European fans (even though the song wasn't not a big hit in general) so I wish she will do it for the US fans. I hope it's not the permission issue that prevents adding the song to the setlist. Who's with me? (Monday 9 July 2018; 17:58)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,048) (83,049) by B from USA When well rested and rehearsed she's still capable of delivering 1997-2005 vocals. With each performance of Can't Let Go her voice becomes clearer. One lypsyncing snafu isn't going to end Mariah Carey's career or her legacy. I think her voice being unpredictable makes her more relatable. Besides, her voice isn't as shot as Whitney's was. (Monday 9 July 2018; 16:53)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,042) (83,048) by amends from Germany I agree to an extend. If Mariah gains back her agility, tone and upper belts then I'm ok with never hearing another whistle. Even if it is phenomenal and one of her biggest trademarks, if she gets her "voice" back after the surgery, I'm all for it. (Monday 9 July 2018; 16:25)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,046) (83,047) by Edouard from France Hi. Your post is interesting. It got me consider something. We tend to criticize Mariah (I don't) for behaving like a bad student (don't know how to express my thought any other way). But we tend to forget that this is exactly what brought her where she was, is and will be. Mariah's a rebel at heart. But she's a smart one, meaning she knows how to play the game and eventually create a new one where she sets the rules. That's the power of this woman. I love Whitney and Celine, I respect them. But Mariah doesn't come from money and a legacy of recording artists (although her mother is a singer) contrary to Whitney and she broke free from her manager/husband contrary to Celine (although of course I would never put René Angelil and you know who in the same box). She's had help all along of course, but I mean what an incredible feat. What an amazing career. (Monday 9 July 2018; 15:12)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) (83,046) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines This is an interesting discussion. To me, Mariah seems to be held to a higher standard than other divas because she still chooses to put herself out there. She refuses to take long breaks and clearly loves to keep herself busy by making music and selling out shows and other high-profile media type ventures. She is a record-breaking workhorse and a perfectionist one at that especially in the studio. And as long as workhorses like her and Madonna enjoy basking in the limelight, they will always be subjected to criticism and comparison, much more so in the age of social media. Mariah will never be enough for the public, let alone her fans because of the towering success she's had and the impossibly high bar she set for herself which she continues to perpetuate by keeping up this facade that she can still sing as effortlessly as she used to. Even when she brought hip-pop to the mainstream, she still cannot earn half of Mary J's street cred. Despite writing almost all of her material, she still trails behind Whitney and Celine because 1) people still don't care much if you write your own stuff and 2) her catalog is overall edgier, less calculated, and less obviously geared towards the masses than the arguably schmaltzier material of those two. I guess having a voice of such unique tone and being able to sing in pitches less than 1% of singers can't reach is less appealing than having a naturally powerful, soulful, gospel voice or having lungs of steel and unusual belting stamina. It is unfair, but this is something that Mariah chooses to keep doing and there's nothing wrong with that - we just have to learn to accept that it's a double-edged sword. Plus she happens to have some of the world's worst critics as fans, so that brings us all here. It's messy and even harsh at times but we love everybody. (Monday 9 July 2018; 14:39)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) (83,045) by Edouard from France You're right. Plus, I mean Mariah's voice is still pretty impressive. Who sings like that today? And among those so-called new divas who will sing like that in 5 years? I'm not even saying in 20 years, I mean in 5 short years. Ef**** nobody. Plus we have to take into consideration that the way Mariah's singing right now is for Vegas. there is a specific accoustic there and she has to bring on her inner Mary J Blige. I also wondered why she was pushing so hard with these vocals instead of the sweet tone that she has in bigger arenas. I think it has a lot to do with the accoustic. Vegas requires a diffrent approach to singing I believe. For those out there who are singers, I believe you know what I mean. In Vegas there is absolutely no echo. The sound is not as "shinny" as in an arena. It's more rough in a way, and that's why she sings that way. If you compare her voice to the Sweet Sweet Fantasy tour, you can tell that she sings diffrently on certain notes. And I think it has to do with the way she hears herself and how the settings echo her voice. Can the lamb who gave us that great vocal lesson earlier give his/her imput on this please. (Monday 9 July 2018; 14:28)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,044) by 90sMariah from SG Is this the reason why she always sounds like her nose is blocked? That's how/what she sounds like to me when she's singing. We can only hope she'll find her way to finally try and fix her bad habits because singing is her bread and butter, that's what she is known for. If she continues on this path, people will forget that she once had a stellar voice. If she's going to lip sync, I hope she sings for her MF life. (Monday 9 July 2018; 14:12)

Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) by Billy from Greece Since the sensitive issue of the voice has come up again and some posters put the blame on Mariah and her lifestyle and bad decisions and bad behavior and irresponsibility and all that good stuff, I was thinking again about how the fanbases of, say, Aretha or Dionne have been treating their divas following the peak. The difference between them and Mariah's fans (or critics, or commentators) is that they support them hundred percent even when not in their best. Aretha and Dionne have been heavy smokers and that has shown in their singing as well. By the late 1980s, their voices had changed quite a lot and in Aretha's case, her raspiness and belting power had diminished a lot. Also, for almost twenty five years, Aretha's higher range is not necessarily the most attractive aspect of her singing. Does it matter to her fans or the public? No, because she had managed to establish herself as an undeniable legend with all the work she had done before. She was truly one of a kind. The difference between them and Mariah lies in that she does not get the same respect despite the legacy she has built. We could elaborate on the reasons on a different post, but the thing is it is as if Mariah is in a constant mode of proving herself for some reason. This had to do with the super high standards that were set in the early part of her career (just like with Whitney), not only because of the natural talent she possesses and the commercial success she achieved but also because of how she was promoted and marketed, which was indicative of its era. (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:37)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,038) (83,042) by Bill from the UK We're at the point of no return now, so I say have the surgery. It can't get any worse. What is she holding on to? Her one remaining octave? (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:13)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,041) by Billy from Greece Hi Manuel. Great in-depth analysis. I'm curious about the following: Why would Mariah develop difficulty with proper breathing technique and/or placement of her voice if in the early part of her career (or later, for instance, Charmbracelet tour) she did not suffer from that? I understand that to an extent it has to do with the way she has chosen to approach her vocal delivery to cover the whole range of dynamics, from soft to belting. Apart from that, I won't go into greater analysis of Mariah's voice the way that it has come up again in this forum. It's pretty standard by this point: the first few shows of any new tour are usually not the best. It takes some time for her to adjust, vocally or performance-wise. To me, despite all the changes that have occurred following thirty (that's right, thirty) years of performing, her voice is still rare. Of course I can tell the differences compared to the so-called "prime", but she still has it, not necessarily for performing the songs in their original structure, but once she is allowed a more fluid style and a more relaxed conceptulaization, her instrument truly shines. Her expressivity based on vocal tone alone is still unmatched. (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:08)

Can't Let Go is lovely (83,040) by Sheila from United States Can't Let Go is truly beautiful. I actually have put it back in my playlist. She needs to revisit some of her older songs that she can still sing and change the key to current vocal state. This was a win-win situation (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:00)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,039) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines Thanks for clarifying. This explains a whole lot especially with regards to the loss of the usual "open" quality of her voice. This is why she mostly sounds like she's forcing everything out of her lungs, compressing her voice and almost making her sound like she's singing with an accent that she did not have in the 90s. You'd think having an opera singer as a mom and having all the resources in the world would be able to help her improve her current vocal situation. So it basically boils down to self-discipline on Mariah's part. All the cups of honeyed teas, humidifiers, and checkups aren't there to offset a bad lifestyle of constant "splashes", stubbornness and late-night partying. (Monday 9 July 2018; 09:41)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,038) by amends from Germany That was very interesting to read. Thank you Manuel. One question: Do you think, if she had the nodules removed, she'd sound "better"? Or am I right to assume that it's still too dangerous to do it and her vocal chords could possibly be damaged to the point of no return? (Monday 9 July 2018; 08:18)

Re: The voice? (83,020) (83,037) by B from USA I believe they would. Her voice is still magnificent. Yes, her voice has been damaged over the years but she's still capable of greatness. With each performance her confidence builds and her vocals improve. (Monday 9 July 2018; 05:44)

Re: The endless gigging / The Butterfly Returns (83,031) (83,036) by B from USA Mariah is doing the residences and tours to reconnect with her fans. When Glitter and Charmbracelet sold poorly she went on tour to re-engage her fanbase and to prove she's still capable of singing after critics and fans alike questioned her abilities. Mariah lypsyncing Fantasy isn't going to ruin her reputation. It actually helps her with the teens that look upnto her because of her antics and shade. Besides she sang Can't Let Go 100% live that and slayed it, her whistle at the end was impeccable. My brother said "wow she's whistling in tune with the beat, she's a freak of nature". (Monday 9 July 2018; 05:38)

Re: Girl's Trip (83,030) (83,035) by Licia from USA I'm still mad I didn't get to go to Essence fest to see her. I agree her little cameo was nice in Girl's Trip and I'm glad she participated. I'd love for her to be in any type of comedy, but not as a diva. The diva thing is hit or miss with me. Sometimes it's funny, but sometimes it's silly. There's more funny in her besides the diva. (Monday 9 July 2018; 02:18)

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