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Re: Butterfly (87,949) (87,958) by TJ from Norway I guess that either way, how it was, we don't know the whole story about who is the true Mariah. I also believe that we wouldn't know Mariah as we now do, if it wasn't for the pre Butterfly years. I'm just glad she made those extremely good albums in that area. Wow, what a sound and voice. Who knows what kind of artist she would have been today if Tommy didn't give her that contract back then. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 21:30)

Re: A No No ft Cardi, Lil Kim and Elliott (87,945) (87,957) by jaker20 from US Why are they doing this to me. This needs to happen asap. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 20:24)

Royal Albert Hall (87,956) by Will from England Ever since I watched Adele's show at the RAH on YouTube, I've always wanted Mariah to perform there. It looks like such an intimate setting and with its history of music performances, as soon as I saw that she was performing there, I knew I had to get tickets. This will be my third show and looking forward to this one quite a bit. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 19:40)

Re: Andrew (87,934) (87,955) by Hector from Mexico Right. That will never happen to With You. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 19:22)

John and Mariah (87,954) by Matty from Vancouver Canada I would love a John Legend and Mariah Carey duet album. Lots of piano, strings, orchestra, their beautiful voices melting together. I think they could make magic together. When Christmas Comes duet version wasn't enough for me. Someone also mentioned on this board, Mariah seems to feel very comfortable working with an orchestra, so I think her output would be great. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 18:36)

Re: Mariah / Super Bowl (87,948) (87,953) by Matty from Vancouver Canada Lol. I only said she should where pants, Mariah looks amazing in pants and body suits IMO. I've also been to some Mariah concerts where she moves freely and easily around the stage having a blast, and then I've been to other concerts where she stands on the X-mark the entire show (a performance like the Super Bowl needs the former, given the nature of that massive venue and audience). One of Mariah's signature and most iconic Mariah hair is the massive huge curls. I'm not sure where in my comment you felt I was re-imagining who MC is and expecting something that's not her? Everything I mentioned is the same Mariah we've seen many times before. Remember this is a hypothetical "if" Mariah were to play the Super Bowl. I'm well aware Mariah is in on the "diva glamour" persona, and lives that up and has fun playing that up. You're right it ain't that serious (Thursday 7 February 2019; 18:19)

Re: Butterfly (87,940) (87,952) by MusicfanJ from Germany Chris1992, your post is really interesting and I agree with a lot of your thoughts. "One of the things I love about early Mariah is how unaffected she was, as a person and as an artist. She was raw and there was beauty in that." I love the Butterfly album and the videos too. They were "Hollywood" but still classy. But I'll always prefer the Long Island girl when it comes to Mariah as a person and an artist. For me that was real. A little shy, her beauty was out if this world and the voice of an angel plus her pure genius talent. The diva playing can be fun too (sometimes), but I don't need it. Mariah as a person and singer is interesting enough. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 17:32)

Being (87,951) by Gee from U.S.A. (New York City) Being a fan since the early stages of MC's career I can say that even though she became successful out of the gate and it gave her some kind of security she really did not feel safe nor comfortable pre Butterfly even though she was selling like hot cakes personally and creatively she felt stifled. While we thought we saw someone who was happy to be living her dreams and have the world at her oyster deep down inside she was unhappy and just going with the flow so to speak. It was not until Daydream into Butterfly where the real MC begins to come into her own and feel good about who she is creatively but that did not come easy she had to fight for who she is today and I am grateful she did because we would have never gotten to experience the true artist that is Mariah if she did not fight that battle and come out victorious. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 15:39)

qhm / Butterfly (87,950) by Gee from U.S.A. (New York City) Brilliant post, you put everything into perspective and your message hit a homerun. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 15:26)

Re: Butterfly (87,940) (87,949) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines Look, it's nice that you have your own beliefs and stay true to them, but you seem to have a weird understanding of what artistry is. For one, artistry should not come at the expense of personal freedom. Pretty much any lamb who has been a supporter since the 90s who is not just a fan of Mariah the singer but is also a fan of Mariah the human being shared the relief Mariah felt when she finally divorced Tommy. Like someone pointed out, it's actually the opposite. Pre-Butterfly Mariah was very much affected by literally everything - she had to dress a certain way, she had to act all demure and virginal, she had to perform ballads in a conservative dress with her hair up, she had to appeal to all demographics, she had to sound like a viable rival to other big-voiced divas, she faced the pressure of keeping up the momentum she had, she could not go out and hang out with other people outside Tommy's circle when she wants to,etc. - she basically had to be somebody else. That control spilled over to her music, which was her only creative outlet at the time. While most of Tommy's control was to ensure that their biggest earner remained bankable and that did serve Mariah well career and success-wise, it stifled her personal life. And to a young ingenue who saw music as her life and wanted a career with longevity, being herself was worth sacrificing to get what she wanted. Songs as deep as Looking In and don't write themselves. They were based on genuine experience and emotion. That was her trying to vent what was pent up over last 5 years. The fact that that was her first and only true introspective song during their union says a lot. Heck, the woman even struggled to get something as brilliant as Fantasy on Daydream, and they had to make Dreamlover much poppier years prior just to be acceptable to the label. That the introspective and crazy personal songs kept pouring out in pretty much every album since Daydream is proof that even the lyrical content and themes of her songs prior to it were restricted. Slipping Away is highly believed to have been demoted to a b-side because it was too R&B and alluded too much to Mariah and Tommy's relationship at the time. To imply that Mariah has been this inauthentic persona who has faked it since 1997 just to play the Hollywood game when it's clear how much she was being held back early on in her career is just unfair not only to her as a person and human being but to every other person whose life she has touched with her post-1997 output. To imply that Mariah and Walter's compositions, while magical, are the only worthy additions to Butterfly is only a matter of personal taste. The Mariah-Walter sound was what people expected from any diva in the 90s. Which is why what excited critics and fans alike were songs that deviated from that such as The Roof, Honey, Breakdown and Babydoll, because they showed artistic growth that was not forced at all, but was instead the sound of a woman who has broken free from the voice and sound that people forced upon her and tried to cage her in. Mariah may have over-indulged her love for hip-hop post-1997, but mind you - she never sounded desperate or like she was trying too hard. It always sounded natural to her. It didn't sound like someone who was forcing herself to adapt to trends (she did set the trend after all) or someone who decided to try something new on a whim. She sounded like she was finally at home and comfortable with her voice and sound. What I agree with, though, is that Mariah really did lose her "innocence", if you will, by 1997. But if she started really playing the Hollywood game by then, that was only because she already learned how to (Tommy taught her well and she acknowledges that to this day), and she was already out of the hands of the man who both put her on a pedestal and tried to tie her to it. But like you said, you do see things differently, and you're entitled to that. It just happens to go against what many fans believe the story is. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 10:59)

Re: Mariah / Super Bowl (87,938) (87,948) by Tijl from Belgium "She needs to wear pants, lower shoes to be able to move around the stage freely and without hand holding, and have massive Diva's Live hair circa 1998." Do you want to see Mariah at the Super Bowl or somebody imitating her? Mariah is the queen diva and that is how she will present herself. Don't people realize she is just playing up to that image and not even taking it that seriously herself? (Thursday 7 February 2019; 10:26)

Re: Lady Gaga (87,946) (87,947) by Dove from United States I haven't seen it. I'll check it out. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 09:58)

Re: Lady Gaga (87,933) (87,946) by 90sMariah from SG I used to like Gaga, until I watched 5'2. Man, she's melodramatic, embarrassingly needy and she comes of as fake. I still cringe during that scene with her grandma when she told her that she wrote a song for her aunt who died in the 60s or 70s (?) and she played her gran the song and while she cries non-stop, her gran was just sitting there nodding politely probably thinking her grand daughter's insane. Her granny then told her to not worry about her aunt Joanne anymore because it happened a long time ago and that she's now at peace. She's so fake. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 05:26)

Re: A No No ft Cardi, Lil Kim and Elliott (87,939) (87,945) by RibbonB from USA Missie Elliott responded in Twitter that the idea is fire, but it was her first time hearing of it. So this is just a rumor as far as she is concerned. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 03:22)

Re: Butterfly (87,940) (87,944) by Bill from the UK Actually the false boobs didn't arrive until 1999. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 01:33)

Re: Butterfly (87,940) (87,943) by Joachim Agerup Løkkevik from Norway It's hard not to agree with you, because you write it so straight forward. I do agree with you that the raw, maybe naive artist that was Mariah disappeared after Butterfly, but to say the music and image back then wasn't calculated, is simply wrong. It was even more calculated, trying to white wash Mariah to get a bigger audience, presenting her as a girl next door/innocent girl because nobody gets offended by anything, she was a goody goody. Hey, even the "Fantasy: Live at Madison Square Garden" was carefully choreographed and directed and even dubbed so she would pass as near perfection. Maybe to you it seems more calculated after Butterfly, but that's because the sense of style also changed generally in the world towards the turn of the millennium, from black/white, grainy and rustique, to more glossy glamour. Mariah took a lot more risks after Butterfly, and even nowadays she is experimenting. Yes, she has turned into a glamour girl all about money and lavish life style, but her early days were calculated, polished, making her turtle neck just right, everything was fake then, besides her songwriting and voice. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 01:00)

Re: Butterfly (87,940) (87,942) by Victoria from USA Who writes a comment that long? Whoa. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 00:33)

Hero (87,941) by Dove from United States Okay, I just watched recent performances of Hero and some are good. But some are not. It's a hard song and I feel like it's pretty hit or miss. I love the one with the NY Philharmonic - I feel like having the live orchestra helped her sing better. (Thursday 7 February 2019; 00:28)

Re: Butterfly (87,835) (87,940) by Deleted from Czech I see things a little differently. Butterfly, while a brilliant album in places (Walter collabs), really was the beginning of the end, the turning point where the manufactured image swallowed the art and the artist. It marked Mariah's creative transformation from singer and songwriter to "diva" and "superstar". Nothing exemplifies that shift more than when Mariah namedrops herself in "Honey" in that instant she manifested a new found awareness of her own place in popular culture, an awareness that would form the basis of her entire creative project from that moment on, which was quite simply to become the antithesis of everything she had hitherto presented herself to be. It was a masterly idea, really to transgress her own image, playing on people's expectations and then subverting them, pop music's original good girl gone bad. And sure enough, the fans loved it, and the critics finally started to take her seriously. All it took was an about-face and a makeover. One of the things I love about early Mariah is how unaffected she was, as a person and as an artist... She was raw and there was beauty in that. She wasn't trying to be edgy and she wasn't playing into trends, there was nothing calculated in those early albums and performances, no spectacle. I think that started to change a little with Music Box... much as I love some of the songs on that album, the music and the image became so much more refined, things were more meticulously crafted, polished to a nice commercial sheen, almost too perfect. That falseness would find it's fulfillment in the cynical, manufactured edginess of the Butterfly era, which came packaged with a new false image (Mariah as the ghetto girl), false blonde straight hair, false boobs, false singing (lipsync), false photoshopped pictures, skimpy outfits, songs written by committees and crossovers with rappers designed to tap into targeted demographics. All the things that to my mind have diminished Mariah's artistry. So many fans see Butterfly as the time in which Mariah came into her own personally and creatively, but If you stop and think about it, almost everything that those same fans criticize her for today actually started in the Butterfly era. I see the Stella mess of the last few years as nothing but Butterfly continued. She's still desperate to prove to us that she's an emancipated woman who just doesn't give a damn what people think, 20 years on. Butterfly also set in motion the total alienation of Mariah's straight male fanbase. We just don't go in for the diva antics, the "emancipated woman" mythology she started peddling, the oversexed spectacle, the plastic surgery, the skimpy ensembles, the shirtless male backup dancers, the outrageous camp, album names like "Charmbracelet" and "Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel". By the time Glitter rolled out, most of us were already long gone and Mariah has never recovered professionally from the loss of that demographic. I only discovered vintage Mariah in 2016 and fell in love with her voice and her music instantly, I had no idea that she was once an artist with an appeal beyond just women and gay guys until I was in my early 20s. It's a major problem when a woman as beautiful and naturally sexy as Mariah can't seem to keep straight guys as fans. It almost feels like she's been deliberately driving us out since '97. Not too long ago I watched an interview Mariah did on The Today Show in '91 to promote the Emotions album, you can find it on YouTube. She was asked why she had never toured, her response was, and I quote: "I'm an introverted person. It's hard for me to get out there and be really Hollywood and ham it up. That's just not who I am." 6 years later, she put out the Honey music video, which was more Hollywood than Hollywood itself. 10 years later, she was actually hamming it up in a Hollywood movie. So did Mariah lie about who she was? I don't think so. Fame, wealth and power change people. Butterfly is the sound of Mariah's transformation from Long Island girl to showbiz icon, the soundtrack of her lost innocence, really. It's the key to understanding how the girl next door became the girl in the ivory tower. (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 21:53)

Re: A No No ft Cardi, Lil Kim and Elliott (87,920) (87,939) by Joachim Agerup Løkkevik from Norway Yes, I think it's real. I read in an article also that A No No was going to be released the 4th of March (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 20:34)

Re: Mariah / Super Bowl (87,932) (87,938) by Matty from Vancouver Canada I think Mimi doing the Super Bowl with a roaster of other big names, like they did in 2001 with Britney, Aerosmith, Mary J and 'NSYNC, would be the best play and a huge success if she were to sign on. I completely agree with her staying away from the standards she always does and really mixing it up with a medley of Triumphant Vintiage Remix, Meteorite, and A No No remix (que Missy, Cardi and Lil' Kim to also take the stage). The rest of the artist line up could be Bruce Springsteen, Cardi B, Shawn Mendes, and Shakira with an awesome dance sequence. Each artist does their own 3-4 song medley to charge the crowd up. All tastes and demos would be a tapped which is what made 2001 so successful. Also... no gowns at all on MC. She needs to wear pants, lower shoes to be able to move around the stage freely and without hand holding, and have massive Diva's Live hair circa 1998. (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 18:13)

Florence forever (87,937) by RibbonB from USA Good for Mimi and John Legend. I like the idea of her and a hundred piece orchestra. I hope she's ready and in great vocal form by June. (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 17:47)

Re: Gladys Knight (87,927) (87,936) by Licia from USA I just caught a little bit of the Hot Topics and he did good. I hope his show is successful. He's pretty good at. I enjoyed the little bit on Mariah. Now before the lambs get all upset because he mentioned her and one of you exaggerates what he said to get other people who don't like him riled up, he didn't say anything disrespectful or talk about an off limit topic. The subject of tattoos came up and he talked about why he got the Mariah tattoo. He was very complimentary towards her. (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 17:27)

Re: With You plus A No No (87,906) (87,935) by B from USA Pink's Who Knew was only a moderate success when it was first released. it wasn't until Pink's next single U + Ur Hand became a hit that the song was later successfully re-released. The point I was trying to make is if Mariah's next single is a hit it could create interest in With You and help it reach a wider audience. Even if it doesn't it has done far better than anyone here ever thought it would. (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 16:46)

Re: Andrew (87,919) (87,934) by B from USA Havanna was released in August of 2017 and hit #1 on the Hot 100 in January 2018. (Wednesday 6 February 2019; 16:30)

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