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Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) (83,046) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines This is an interesting discussion. To me, Mariah seems to be held to a higher standard than other divas because she still chooses to put herself out there. She refuses to take long breaks and clearly loves to keep herself busy by making music and selling out shows and other high-profile media type ventures. She is a record-breaking workhorse and a perfectionist one at that especially in the studio. And as long as workhorses like her and Madonna enjoy basking in the limelight, they will always be subjected to criticism and comparison, much more so in the age of social media. Mariah will never be enough for the public, let alone her fans because of the towering success she's had and the impossibly high bar she set for herself which she continues to perpetuate by keeping up this facade that she can still sing as effortlessly as she used to. Even when she brought hip-pop to the mainstream, she still cannot earn half of Mary J's street cred. Despite writing almost all of her material, she still trails behind Whitney and Celine because 1) people still don't care much if you write your own stuff and 2) her catalog is overall edgier, less calculated, and less obviously geared towards the masses than the arguably schmaltzier material of those two. I guess having a voice of such unique tone and being able to sing in pitches less than 1% of singers can't reach is less appealing than having a naturally powerful, soulful, gospel voice or having lungs of steel and unusual belting stamina. It is unfair, but this is something that Mariah chooses to keep doing and there's nothing wrong with that - we just have to learn to accept that it's a double-edged sword. Plus she happens to have some of the world's worst critics as fans, so that brings us all here. It's messy and even harsh at times but we love everybody. (Monday 9 July 2018; 14:39)

Re: Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) (83,045) by Edouard from France You're right. Plus, I mean Mariah's voice is still pretty impressive. Who sings like that today? And among those so-called new divas who will sing like that in 5 years? I'm not even saying in 20 years, I mean in 5 short years. Ef**** nobody. Plus we have to take into consideration that the way Mariah's singing right now is for Vegas. there is a specific accoustic there and she has to bring on her inner Mary J Blige. I also wondered why she was pushing so hard with these vocals instead of the sweet tone that she has in bigger arenas. I think it has a lot to do with the accoustic. Vegas requires a diffrent approach to singing I believe. For those out there who are singers, I believe you know what I mean. In Vegas there is absolutely no echo. The sound is not as "shinny" as in an arena. It's more rough in a way, and that's why she sings that way. If you compare her voice to the Sweet Sweet Fantasy tour, you can tell that she sings diffrently on certain notes. And I think it has to do with the way she hears herself and how the settings echo her voice. Can the lamb who gave us that great vocal lesson earlier give his/her imput on this please. (Monday 9 July 2018; 14:28)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,044) by 90sMariah from SG Is this the reason why she always sounds like her nose is blocked? That's how/what she sounds like to me when she's singing. We can only hope she'll find her way to finally try and fix her bad habits because singing is her bread and butter, that's what she is known for. If she continues on this path, people will forget that she once had a stellar voice. If she's going to lip sync, I hope she sings for her MF life. (Monday 9 July 2018; 14:12)

Criticizing Mariah / other divas and fans (83,043) by Billy from Greece Since the sensitive issue of the voice has come up again and some posters put the blame on Mariah and her lifestyle and bad decisions and bad behavior and irresponsibility and all that good stuff, I was thinking again about how the fanbases of, say, Aretha or Dionne have been treating their divas following the peak. The difference between them and Mariah's fans (or critics, or commentators) is that they support them hundred percent even when not in their best. Aretha and Dionne have been heavy smokers and that has shown in their singing as well. By the late 1980s, their voices had changed quite a lot and in Aretha's case, her raspiness and belting power had diminished a lot. Also, for almost twenty five years, Aretha's higher range is not necessarily the most attractive aspect of her singing. Does it matter to her fans or the public? No, because she had managed to establish herself as an undeniable legend with all the work she had done before. She was truly one of a kind. The difference between them and Mariah lies in that she does not get the same respect despite the legacy she has built. We could elaborate on the reasons on a different post, but the thing is it is as if Mariah is in a constant mode of proving herself for some reason. This had to do with the super high standards that were set in the early part of her career (just like with Whitney), not only because of the natural talent she possesses and the commercial success she achieved but also because of how she was promoted and marketed, which was indicative of its era. (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:37)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,038) (83,042) by Bill from the UK We're at the point of no return now, so I say have the surgery. It can't get any worse. What is she holding on to? Her one remaining octave? (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:13)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,041) by Billy from Greece Hi Manuel. Great in-depth analysis. I'm curious about the following: Why would Mariah develop difficulty with proper breathing technique and/or placement of her voice if in the early part of her career (or later, for instance, Charmbracelet tour) she did not suffer from that? I understand that to an extent it has to do with the way she has chosen to approach her vocal delivery to cover the whole range of dynamics, from soft to belting. Apart from that, I won't go into greater analysis of Mariah's voice the way that it has come up again in this forum. It's pretty standard by this point: the first few shows of any new tour are usually not the best. It takes some time for her to adjust, vocally or performance-wise. To me, despite all the changes that have occurred following thirty (that's right, thirty) years of performing, her voice is still rare. Of course I can tell the differences compared to the so-called "prime", but she still has it, not necessarily for performing the songs in their original structure, but once she is allowed a more fluid style and a more relaxed conceptulaization, her instrument truly shines. Her expressivity based on vocal tone alone is still unmatched. (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:08)

Can't Let Go is lovely (83,040) by Sheila from United States Can't Let Go is truly beautiful. I actually have put it back in my playlist. She needs to revisit some of her older songs that she can still sing and change the key to current vocal state. This was a win-win situation (Monday 9 July 2018; 12:00)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,039) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines Thanks for clarifying. This explains a whole lot especially with regards to the loss of the usual "open" quality of her voice. This is why she mostly sounds like she's forcing everything out of her lungs, compressing her voice and almost making her sound like she's singing with an accent that she did not have in the 90s. You'd think having an opera singer as a mom and having all the resources in the world would be able to help her improve her current vocal situation. So it basically boils down to self-discipline on Mariah's part. All the cups of honeyed teas, humidifiers, and checkups aren't there to offset a bad lifestyle of constant "splashes", stubbornness and late-night partying. (Monday 9 July 2018; 09:41)

Re: Mariah's voice (83,034) (83,038) by amends from Germany That was very interesting to read. Thank you Manuel. One question: Do you think, if she had the nodules removed, she'd sound "better"? Or am I right to assume that it's still too dangerous to do it and her vocal chords could possibly be damaged to the point of no return? (Monday 9 July 2018; 08:18)

Re: The voice? (83,020) (83,037) by B from USA I believe they would. Her voice is still magnificent. Yes, her voice has been damaged over the years but she's still capable of greatness. With each performance her confidence builds and her vocals improve. (Monday 9 July 2018; 05:44)

Re: The endless gigging / The Butterfly Returns (83,031) (83,036) by B from USA Mariah is doing the residences and tours to reconnect with her fans. When Glitter and Charmbracelet sold poorly she went on tour to re-engage her fanbase and to prove she's still capable of singing after critics and fans alike questioned her abilities. Mariah lypsyncing Fantasy isn't going to ruin her reputation. It actually helps her with the teens that look upnto her because of her antics and shade. Besides she sang Can't Let Go 100% live that and slayed it, her whistle at the end was impeccable. My brother said "wow she's whistling in tune with the beat, she's a freak of nature". (Monday 9 July 2018; 05:38)

Re: Girl's Trip (83,030) (83,035) by Licia from USA I'm still mad I didn't get to go to Essence fest to see her. I agree her little cameo was nice in Girl's Trip and I'm glad she participated. I'd love for her to be in any type of comedy, but not as a diva. The diva thing is hit or miss with me. Sometimes it's funny, but sometimes it's silly. There's more funny in her besides the diva. (Monday 9 July 2018; 02:18)

Re: Mariah's voice (82,998) (83,034) by Manuel from Germany Hey Jade, I am a speech and voice pathologist so I want to answer your question. The main issue with Mariah's voice has been for many years the lack of confidence, a faulty breathing technique and also issues with the placement of her voice (and of course the nodules). Mariah these days uses a very chest-dominant mix which means that more compression of the vocalis muscle (the inner muscle of the larynx) is used, making the voice sounds heavier and making it less agile. In her Daydream years, she had impeccable breathing technique. If one properly breathes from the diaphragm, the lungs expand to the greatest degree possible. The lungs are "glued" to the diaphragm. When one breathes in deeply, the larynx automatically goes down a bit because through the alveoli and bronchi and the windpipe it is connected with the diaphragm (as well as through the oesophagus, which goes through the diaphragm into the stomach and which is attached through throat constricting muscles to the larynx). This lowered larynx creates more space in the back of the throat, through which more overtones can be produced in the voice, giving it that rich, open, high sound she used to have earlier - if it is combined with a nasal placement. Beware - nasal placement does not mean nasality which actually muffles the voice, it means that the throat is very wide and the velum raised. Also through proper breathing, and breath support (which basically means withholding the inhalation tendency while exhaling), the compression of the vocal folds is reduced, which allows for the voice to be less chesty and more heady, because vocal fold closure happens through the mucous membrane surrounding the vocal cords as opposed to through a more muscular approach of cord closure. So less muscular closure = more agility in the voice and more ability to stretch the vocal cords (through another muscle outside the larynx) = higher voice/higher belting etc. Mariah nowadays breathes high and unefficiently, having to create overtones through more closure which for her often results in strain. Also, she has tongue and jaw tensions which is to compensate for the poor placement. Her placement is not very forward but more "in the mouth", and this leads to her losing the agility and also the brilliance of the belts, so they sounds harsher and more shouty. Also, tongue and jaw tension mess with the airflow because the space in the throat is narrowed and the air she exhales (and which through the vocal cords she turns into sound) encounters more pressure above the vocal cords, or is impeded. In physiological voice production, the air pressure under and above the vocal cords is almost exactly equal and this takes all the strain away from the cords themselves, making the sound free and open and beautiful. If the air pressure is in dysbalance, the sound gets stuck in the throat and she has to press and strain more to make it come out. Through this, cord closure is achieved through the muscle and I have already described what that entails. If her voice is sustained through breath and correct placement, it is free and big and round, if it is held through improper breathing or placement, it needs to compensate to create a similar sound but it becomes less free. Now through constant pressure, the nodules don't go away. Nodules are like calluses on the vocal cords and the more they are pressed together, the thicker they grow. Also with age, the cartilages in the larynx ossify (i.e. become harder), making the voice less agile. So to sum this up, Mariah is definitely not going to sound as agile anymore as Daydream Mariah but she could regain her prime timbre (sounding more mature though) if she breathed and placed her voice correctly. And voice therapy would definitely help with that. However I don't think she is interested. Hope this explanation was easy to understand, it is very complex and I tried to break it down as good as I could. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 23:01)

Can't Let Go (83,033) by Musti from UK I haven't watched the lip sync fail nor do I intend to. It doesn't matter to be honest. We have all known for a while that her voice isn't as durable as other divas. Regardless, she will always be remembered as a master vocalist even if her legacy rests on less than two decades of live singing. I hope no one here expected the magic to last forever. We might as well appreciate whatever is left. And I'm truly appreciating what she did on Can't Let Go. Not the original key obviously, but she still did it great justice. That G6 was crystal clear. I'm still shocked she sang the whole song live. I honestly couldn't give two shits about Fantasy not being live if it means she will deliver on more important songs like Can't Let Go. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 22:45)

"Can't Take That Away" (live) (83,032) by Billy from Greece The "I, I have learned" part that she has been doing differently from the studio version since the Divas Live is one of the best things I have ever heard in my life. It last two seconds, but, wow, I don't know, it always gets me. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 22:21)

Re: The endless gigging / The Butterfly Returns (83,023) (83,031) by Matthew from USA Mariah is better in the studio. That's where she likes to be. She's not hurting for money. So the endless gigging must be a business thing. It's guaranteed money that justifies them keeping her on the label and they don't have to spend anything on promotion. Mariah had shown some interest in going independent. She even called her friend Prince to find out more about being independent but in the end she opted for the "safety" of a label. I thought it was a good idea for her to stick with a label back then, but now I'm not so sure. Does anyone know what the label is actually doing for her if all she does is tour? I guess she is in a catch-22. If she goes independent she can do what she loves and be in the studio, but she would have to fund the promotion herself. If she stays on a label, they will "encourage" her to do tours and residencies so they don't have to spend money on promoting something that may not see returns. Then again, Mariah going independent could be a hot mess if she doesn't have the right people, and she has poor judgement in that regard. I'm just not seeing how the label is helping at this point. I mean, even Stella was able to arrange the residencies and tours. What do the lambs think? (Sunday 8 July 2018; 21:14)

Girl's Trip (83,030) by RibbonB from USA I was really surprised when Mariah signed to headline EssenceFest a couple of years ago. She did ok then, but the best surprise from it was her appearance in the movie Girls Trip I saw it in the theatre, but it's very cool to know that Mimi has a moment at the end of the movie and it seems to play weekly on HBO. I liked her in the Zohan movie, but the movie itself was so dumb I can't stand to look for her part in it, plus it's not really even a cult favorite film and it rarely airs. I would still love to see Mimi as a villain in an Austin Powers type of movie. The right vehicles can have long term positive effects. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 21:12)

Re: Mimi L (83,018) (83,029) by RibbonB from USA Just show us a little peak at your cake or something. What flavor? (Sunday 8 July 2018; 18:22)

Re: Mimi from the block (83,024) (83,028) by RibbonB from USA She put her magic glasses on along with her miracle cap, just before making her reply. To go along with the romper room creative direction and budget block construction. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 18:18)

Re: The endless gigging / The Butterfly Returns (83,026) (83,027) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines I think I wasn't clear enough. I did not mean her personal life. I meant messy performances onstage. Watch pretty much any performance she did in support of her final album. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 15:55)

Re: The endless gigging / The Butterfly Returns (83,023) (83,026) by Lee from USA How did Whitney own her mess exactly? The lack of a public statement and relapsing is not "owning" it. The absence of Clive Davis (and the scapegoating of Bobby Brown) wasn't anyone owning it. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 14:37)

Re: Mimi L (83,018) (83,025) by Licia from USA Congrats on the marriage Mimi L. Wishing you a lifetime of love and happiness. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 13:37)

Re: Mimi from the block (83,015) (83,024) by Licia from USA I'm trying to find a way to word this post so that it doesn't come off as super rude, but I really don't care about you, your opinion, or Banaka. It's not that big of a deal. You came out of hiding to defend something that was a joke. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 13:35)

The endless gigging / The Butterfly Returns (83,023) by this_is_qhm from the Philippines I guess the music alone doesn't sell as much anymore and so she finds performing more lucrative, even if it means having to do the same thing over and over again for the rest of the year. That's fine, I guess, but it seems like the more that she continues to do this, the more her voice sounds labored and forced, making the difference of her prerecorded and live tones more apparent, which ultimately makes her lipping less convincing. Has she ever watched herself sing? Especially like how she struggles for dear life when pushing herself to reach high notes? Because this is something that she never seems to learn when she mimes. You can't all of a sudden look relaxed and ecstatic on the climaxes after barely making it through the build-up. Lip-syncing is fine as long as you don't try to pull a Milli Vanilli, but the least you can do is make it as convincing as possible. And when you're Mariah Carey, the expectations are even higher. Being true to your current voice is one thing that I appreciate from Whitney. Even when her voice was at its worst and she pretty much made a mess of every performance onstage; even when disappointed fans were walking out of her final tour, she still owned her mess and refused to hide it. The Butterfly Returns seems like a step towards that direction. There's less reliance on playback than usual, leaving Mariah's now mostly razor sharp tone cut through the background music. Her voice continues to become more acquired taste than pleasant, but at least she's starting to show more of the real situation. And this is the best she's looked since the AI days. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 12:53)

Re: Lip sync fail (83,010) (83,022) by Bill from the UK Haha. Yeh it was like "one second honey mama needs to lip sync". And then Roc pretty much summed up the crowd's thoughts with his suicide attempt at the end. (Sunday 8 July 2018; 12:43)

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